Episode 197 | Sep 17, 2026

How to Turn Motivation Into Lasting Change, With Dr. Heather McKee

What if a lack of motivation is not actually what keeps people stuck? This week on Health Coach Talk, Dr. Sandi welcomes behavioral scientist and health behavior change expert Dr. Heather McKee to explore what motivation really is, why it naturally rises and falls, and how small actions can create the progress that keeps healthy behaviors moving forward. Drawing on her background in behavior change psychology and her work with global health and fitness organizations, Dr. Heather offers a science-backed look at what helps habits become sustainable in real life.

“It’s about actually coming back to helping clients turn good intentions and clinical recommendations into small personally meaningful actions that can survive your imperfect life.”

Dr. Heather McKee

Rather than relying on willpower or waiting to feel motivated, Dr. Heather explains how repeated behaviors, meaningful cues, enjoyment, and a sense of progress can gradually make healthy actions feel more automatic. She explores habit stacking, intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation, the psychology behind the “shoulds,” and why behaviors that bring joy, mastery, or a sense of personal meaning are often easier to maintain. The conversation also turns to wearables and health technology, where Dr. Heather shares why more data is not always more helpful and why personal intuition, context, and meaningful feedback still matter when translating information into action.

For health coaches, this episode highlights the value of looking beyond a client’s statement that they simply “aren’t motivated.” Dr. Heather explains how coaching conversations can uncover what is making a behavior difficult, connect health goals to what matters personally, and turn recommendations into small actions that can hold up during busy, stressful, and imperfect days. She also explores the growing relationship between coaching and technology, emphasizing how human context and curiosity can help clients make sense of data without becoming overwhelmed by it. For coaches supporting lasting behavior change, the conversation offers a compelling reminder that progress often begins with making the next action feel meaningful and manageable.

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Transcript

Dr. Sandi: We often say that lack of motivation is what results in people feeling stuck. But is that true? And how can a coach help people with motivation? What is motivation, really? And how is it tied to taking action? Well, we explore motivation because, today, my guest on “Health Coach Talk” is an expert in behavior change. Let me tell you about her.

She is Dr. Heather McKee. She’s a behavioral scientist, a keynote speaker, and the motivation science advisor at Myzone. She has a PhD in health behavior change psychology. She specializes in helping people turn healthy intentions into sustainable habits. Heather works with global organizations like Lululemon and Decathlon and Myzone, as well as health and fitness brands and coaches to translate behavioral science into practical strategies that build lasting motivation, confidence, and consistency. So, I know you are going to enjoy my conversation with Heather.

Welcome, Dr. Heather McKee.

Dr. Heather: Hi, Sandi. Lovely to be with you.

Dr. Sandi: It is great to be with you. Let’s start out by talking about this whole concept of motivation. People might say…just they start out with motivation, they’re motivated initially, and then it tapers off. But what do you think most people would misunderstand about motivation?

Dr. Heather: Great starting question. What a way to start. People think that motivation will just equal action and then it’ll equal results. But in practice, what actually it means is it’s actually a small action, then evidence of progress that makes you more motivated over time. So, for your coaches, when a client says, “I’m just not motivated,” we shouldn’t really try and increase motivation. We want to know actually what’s stopping them from action.

Because the thing I always talk about is that motivation starts here and when we’re in a motivated state, we’re a little bit blind to real world in real life. We think, okay, well, it’s January or September, or it’s a big birthday or something. And because I’m motivated now, I’m going to stay like this. But motivation has a trajectory that just goes like that. What we want to do is we want habit to take over because habit tends to be low at the start when we’re starting out new behaviors. So, we want to increase repetitions of habit over time. So, as your motivation tanks, that habit starts taking over.

And so, I think it’s really important for coaches to think about how do we unpick motivation. So, when someone says, “I’m not motivated,” I don’t actually believe that as a statement. I want to know what’s difficult about starting. What actions have you taken? What could make things feel easier? How have you managed similarly on difficult days?

I want people to think about their realistic future selves because we all think our future self is like this…just has all the time, has all the money, has all the cognitive capacity, is never tired or in a bad mood or getting hormones or any of those things. And actually, I often get people to step back and think about, okay, well, on your worst of days, what are you still going to be able to do? And if we can specify those behaviors, then we don’t even need motivation for them.

And then this behavioral science shows actually people that are most motivated are people that don’t actually rely on their willpower. They conserve their willpower in a way because they’ve set up their lives in a way that actually supports them to engage in the easiest way possible. So, they don’t need to feel motivated to actually carry out those behaviors time and time again.

Dr. Sandi: Yeah. These are simple concepts, but they’re profound. And I love what you said about turning into something that you may feel unmotivated to do, but it can become a habit. And I love the work of BJ Fogg, who has taught for us and his Tiny Habits where you pair…you first make sure that it’s something that you can accomplish. So, I wouldn’t say I’m going to swim the English Channel, for example, but I have started to wake up early. There’s a swimming pool close by and I started…okay, I will just go and I just swam. It’s Olympic size. I’ll just swim like half a lap and get out. Okay. That’s doable. And then bills. But he also talks about pairing to build a habit. Every time I am waiting for my coffee to brew, I will do 30 air squats. And now, I just associate that and it’s become a habit. So, I wonder your thoughts on that.

Dr. Heather: Yeah. And we call that habit stuff, you’re piggybacking. The thing is, habits are formed through something called context-dependent repetition. So, do the same thing in the same circumstance enough times, and it becomes a non-conscious process in your brain. So, you don’t just think about it. Often we get into a car, we don’t have to think about putting on our seatbelt, it’s something we do automatically. We don’t lay in bed in the morning trying to motivate ourselves to brush our teeth. We just do it automatically.

And so, when we already have established cues in our environment, like brushing our teeth, like your morning coffee, getting into your car, things you do day in and day out, your brain automates them. So, you don’t have to think about them. And so, if we can actually attach new behaviors that we’re trying to create to those existing behaviors, it means that the first step of the habit chain is already there. So, habits are formed through a cue or a trigger, then you perform the behavior in response for a particular reward. And so, if we’ve already got loads of cues going on in our days, if we can latch onto those existing cues, it makes it much more likely then that we’ll perform those behaviors in response to reward, especially if they already exist rather than having to carve out time in your day to actually do the particular behavior.

So, an example of this is a lot of people say, oh, I don’t have time to meditate. And I often say, oh, do you drink tea or coffee? And they say, yes. And I say, how many times do you boil the kettle? I was like, that could be your cue. Every time the kettle boils, the opportunity to take a long, slow exhale. We don’t have to necessarily make more time in our day for that. That time already exists, that habit already exists. So, we don’t have to actually use cognitive effort to remember. So, I am a big fan of habit stacking for particular behaviors because it just makes that cue easier to engage with. It’s something you already do, and you’re more likely to engage with it.

I think there’s another aspect to motivation, which I think is really important to flag as well. It’s not about the quantity of motivation that you have. I think it’s about the quality of motivation that you have as well, which is a really important distinction. And what I mean by that is someone can be really motivated to lose X amount of weight on the scales or really motivated to get a certain time in a race or lift something in the gym. But that type of motivation is quite extrinsic and I call that slippy motivation. So, you’re less likely to actually be able to keep going with that type of motivation because the problem is you’re still relying on numbers rather than the behaviors and the habits that you set up in your life to actually tell you that they’re markers of progress.

So, if you stand on the scales or you can’t lift that weight in the gym, the numbers don’t reflect the effort that you’ve been putting in, that’s actually really demotivating for people, and that’s why people become disillusioned with their goal. And often, those extrinsic goals as well, they’re not really serving us. They’re should-do goals. They’re goals that our clients might think, oh, someone I saw on social media. So, I need to do it. Or my doctor said I have to do it. So, therefore, I should do it.

And when we’re in that situation, how we bring people back to a more high-quality motivation or intrinsic motivation, as they call it in the literature, is we ask people, what contribution does this make to your life? Your coaches can ask this to individuals, and it really helps them list that intrinsic motivation, intrinsic to directly translate into your inward, which is good for the soul, which I absolutely love. And it’s basically like soul-nourishing motivation. And that’s the kind of motivation that keeps you going in the trenches, when you can see directly the impact a specific behavior will have on your life.

Let’s go back, for simplicity’s sake, to the meditation example. If you can see that, actually, yeah, after I take those one and a half, two minutes of deep breaths, I feel more centered, I feel more calm, I’m better able to tolerate my kids, my partner, things at work. I can see that contribution. It’s the same with movement. If you can see actually moving in this way gives me more energy, it makes me feel more confident, makes me feel more confident, I just feel more like myself when I do this. If we can tap into that, then we can help evoke that in our clients by asking them, why are we doing this? What is it giving you back in your life? And getting them to start to notice those things, that can really contribute then to a positive type of motivation that does actually feel…and it’s much more of a sustainable motivational feel for people.

Dr. Sandi: That is so beautiful because when it is this intrinsically motivated process, then you’re really looking at the outcome. And then I think, if you add to that, breaking it down into small steps and you pair it with an activity. So, one breath, I’m going to take one big breath. I used to…after you end every phone call. At that time, we didn’t have cell phones or texts. It was just a phone call every time you hang up the phone. So, take a pause and take a deep breath. And so, it becomes paired. I find I do that a lot with exercise, exercise snacks throughout the day. So, I’ll do those air squats. And then every time I’m done with the air squats, I’ll close my eyes to see if I can balance on one foot or wake up…every time I’m about to get dressed, I’ll do some jumping jacks. And so, it’s paired with those activities throughout the day.

But what do you say to somebody who has the case of the shoulds? It’s an intention behavior. Yeah, I know I should be doing this. I know I should be exercise. I know I should be walking after dinner or whatever I’ve been told to do or they’ve read that this is important to do, but they just…at the end of the day, they just don’t do it. And now, they feel guilty, and they’re berating themselves. What’s wrong with me? Why can’t I get motivated to do this, or why does it fall apart at the end of the day?

Dr. Heather: Yeah. Great question. I think so many of us suffer from that. Even us in the field, I’d say a lot of your coaches included, we’d be very passionate about this, but then we’re like, oh, well, I should manage my screen time better. I should get on top of my sleep habits more. We’re stacking more and more on. And actually, that in itself is a concept in psychology known as goals illusion. So, the more you add in, the more you take away from the focal goal, and the more likely it is you’ll be unsuccessful the more you’re asking of yourself.

Ultimately, for someone like… So, if I was the coach and someone had came to with the case of the shoulds, I would say, okay, the goal here is to improve your health. And then we’d establish that first. And I would ask them that, okay, well, what healthy behaviors bring you joy? And I would kind of try and tap into that. Again, that’s tapping into intrinsic motivation. Again, I would ask them what certain behaviors maybe contribute towards their life so they can move away from but I feel like I should do this because x, y, and z person told me to do it.

But I would get them to start with a joy list. What are the healthy activities that bring you joy? Because so often, people feel…someone joins a gym, for example. And they’ll scan the gym floor, and they’ll be like, okay, the assault bike or the step machine. Because they’re the most punishing things here, they’re the most important ones I have to do. And I would be saying, whoa, I would take a step back here. What are you going to enjoy the most? Because what you’re going to enjoy the most is what you’re going to stick with. If it’s going for a walk, a hike with your dog makes you feel alive, loving being in nature, is it that hot water and lemon in the morning makes you feel like you’re at a spa, is it lighting a candle makes you feel peaceful in your day?

It doesn’t have to be huge things, but when someone’s got a case of the shoulds, it’s about bringing them back and reconnecting them with joy and actually what movement, health, well-being means for them, but also what it can give them back rather than what it takes away.

Dr. Sandi: I love that response. And we are so aligned. Absolutely. We’re focusing on what brings you joy. And even though there are parts of what you want to do may be uncomfortable, you can still pick out moments of joy.

So, I go to a ballet class. And sometimes I don’t…it’s often…it’s very repetitive and there are certain…we’ve been doing this routine for years, the same music. And sometimes I just…I know it’s so boring, but I love the community. I have made good friends in that class. And so, I go for the socialization and the fact that this movement is good for me, and sometimes doing the same movements allows you to perfect it. Every time, I can find something different. I thought the same thing about Ashtanga yoga, which I used to practice. And it was…it’s so…no music and no variation. It’s just the same set of poses over and over again, but there’s a value to that. And some days, t’s just how you talk to yourself.

Dr. Heather: That brings up a really important point, Sandi, actually, as well. And it’s something that we think of a lot about in behavioral psychology is exactly like you talk about framing, but also mastery. Joy doesn’t always mean that you’ve got a massive smile on your face. It often means that you’ve got an adequate challenge and you’ve managed to rise to that challenge that you feel like you’re starting to progress with something, that you feel like your effort is being rewarded. But you feel like, yeah, you’re really getting to grips with something or you’re learning a new skill.

All of those things actually are really reinforcing, that sense of mastery, and that can be really positive. We call it confidence in behavioral psychology. And confidence and drastic…impact on your confidence, and therefore, your engagement in movement and health and well-being as a whole.

Dr. Sandi: Yeah. Let’s turn to another topic and that is data collection, and the use of technology, activity tracking. This is so popular now, and it can also feel overwhelming. And you are constantly glued to that data. But how do you suggest people use it? And if you are a coach, how can you help your clients? Because there is some risk. You can start comparing or, oh, I didn’t sleep well last night because my ring told me so. But yet you woke up feeling pretty good and alert. And now, you’re, oh, no, maybe I didn’t sleep so well after all.

Dr. Heather: Yeah. And I think that’s a really good point. I think it’s really important that we don’t overlook the fact that we need to develop our personal intuition alongside data. And I think that’s where coaches are so unique. Because I actually talked to my mom about this recently. She was saying, oh, I’ve been sleeping terribly. And then I open the dashboard on my wearable, and there’s so many different factors. And she’s like, I just want to know what I need to do today in order to be well tonight and sleep well tonight.

And it’s so true. I often make the joke, it’s not…those of us outside of the industry, they don’t wake up and think, I want more complex physiological interpretation of my readiness. They just want to know what am I going to do today to stay well. And I think technology is most useful when it supports motivational need than simply producing more data because more data actually leads to disengagement. If anyone has ever scrolled on Netflix or another streaming resource, you know that the more information you’re getting, the harder it is to make a choice.

And that’s where the role of the coach really comes in and good technology. And actually, I’ve worked in the tech field for around 10 years. And one of the reasons I was attracted to Myzone in particular is because they have this kind of philosophy around good technologies should interrupt your autopilot because there’s a…with a concept in psychology which you might be familiar with, Sandi, called habituation, where if you just see the same thing over and over again, you just become numb to it. It’s not relevant.

Dr. Sandi: You tune it out.

Dr. Heather: Yes. It needs to be highly personalized. So, it needs to be relevant to that individual. So, if you’re trying to make partner in a law firm or if you’ve just had a baby, focusing on your sleep scores right now is not a good place for you. Let’s think about something that’s actually more within your locus of control. One thing, again, Myzone do really well is making effort visible. So, helping people feel like that sense of progression is where technology can be really helpful.

And then the final thing is helping people then with the next step, and that’s where the coach comes in. The coach can come in and interpret that and say, well, what does feel manageable for you in the context of what’s going on for you in your life right now? And I think that’s the problem. Technology often misses the context. And therefore, it becomes more noise in that individual’s life. And they don’t know which direction to turn.

So, I think a strong coach is someone that is actually able to know that a wearable in itself is not an intervention. What matters is the behavior and the coaching conversation that the data enable. It’s that conversation that happens around it. What are you curious about this? What do you think happened here? What was different this week? And then bring them back to you. Well, how do you feel your body today? How does this morning feel different than two days ago? What happened last night? What was different in your day? Becoming really curious about those kind of patterns in the client’s behavior and asking those questions that reinforce their own personal intuition and their own personal learning. And their own personal…I suppose, going back to what you mentioned earlier, Sandi, confidence in actually understanding what that data means for them in their world is just a beautiful place to be. And I think, actually, coach-assisted technology is going to be the most efficacious and the most impactful type of technology.

Dr. Sandi: Absolutely. And it is not an either-or. And we’re seeing so many AI health coaches in development. Actually, Apple just dropped theirs, which was good. But all of the studies…and people prefer that human element, that heart-centered coaching. And it is a combination. So, you’re using the technology to help, but the main source of support is a human coach because they can pick up on these subtle nuances in body languages and tone of voice, in just also the sense of being connected with another human being who cares about you creates…it’s a profound difference than just talking to an AI coach.

Dr. Heather: That’s the thing. AI doesn’t take into account that context as well. Maybe you’re struggling with hormones right now. So, that’s why this is difficult, or maybe you’ve just gone through a bereavement, or all of these things that actually form the wider context, that form actually your ability to be able to take on tasks and execute on tasks.

And also, AI is only as good as the input you give it. And I don’t think right now we’re training our AI in the right way. We’re not asking it…we’re not talking to it about what type of coaching works for us, what type of language works for us. You mentioned the word compassionate there. Some people love a compassionate coach, some people love a bootcamp style coach, all of that.

And I think the beauty of AI is that a coach cannot be there 24/7. Let’s be realistic. And it takes that load away from the coach in a way that it allows them to support their clients beyond the gym, beyond those phone calls, beyond that nutritional assessment, beyond…but it has to reflect that kind of…it basically just needs to be more personalized. And so, it needs a little bit of more onboarding from both the coach and the client in terms of what are your preferences, what’s worked for you in the past, where have you failed in the past. Feeding it all of that information then allows it to personalize things that are actually going to be really relevant to your life and much more likely to make a difference.

Dr. Sandi: Oh, absolutely. So, I know our listeners would love to hear and I would love to hear about your role as a motivation science advisor at Myzone, and how are you helping people with motivation to experience exercises rewarding, for example. I’d love to hear how that works.

Dr. Heather: Yeah. It’s interesting. So, my whole background is in behavioral science. So, I was a researcher, and then I ended up working in the field. And I’ve been lucky enough to work in the field now for 15 years. And when I started out, behavioral science wasn’t even a term. It didn’t exist. And now, it was quite exciting when I could feel those people are starting to understand a little bit more about it.

And Myzone had reached out to me. I became extremely interested in their product because people were addicted to it. They absolutely adored it. And anything that actually has that stickiness, I just want to unpick…I want to know why are people engaging with it, what is it about it, what’s their secret sauce? And there’s a lot of things that are surrounding it that really work.

So, for example, they have this metric that they take from heart rate, and it’s called Myzone Effort Points. And basically, what it does…so, you wear a watch. And it measures your heart rate, and it tells you what zone you’re in. And when you’re exercising in specific zones, you get more points. But basically, what people love is that if your effort is acknowledged in the moment, they love to know they’re exercising in the right zone for them at that time. They love to know that actually those points stack up. So, there’s a game within Myzone where you get statuses based on the amount of points you have, but importantly, the consistency that you have in movement, which is often missing from a lot of wearables. And they’ve done a lot of work and a lot of shifts, and I’ve been working quite closely with the CTO in order to allow forgiveness into the wearable so that it’s not just about gaining more and more, sometimes people will have bad weeks. They’ll be sick, they’ll be on holidays. Can we freeze things for a while? Then can we come back?

But ultimately, they’re basing so much of their work on behavioral science, on things like the self-determination theory. We’re integrating things like confidence that we just talked about, relatedness. They have incredible success because they were in these classes in gyms where people can actually see how they’re doing. They can chat to others about how they’re doing. They go to the cafe afterwards. Everyone’s like, what points did you get? What zone were you in? How are you getting on? It becomes a social connector. I was talking with a gym operator this week, and they were saying, it’s so sticky because it gives people something to talk about. They go for coffee afterwards, and they’re still talking about it.

And so, it’s lovely in that way that it creates a sense of community around it. And I have to say, the team are incredible because they’re always like, okay, well, what else can we do from behavioral science point of view? How can we create…could they have people there that have been 14, 15 years engaged with the fit…with the watch, which is just…with the watch, with the strap. And now, they’re actually integrating into things like Garmin and other wearables as well. But people just absolutely adore it because it rewards their effort in the moment, which is not something you tend to get out of other wearables.

And so, if we’re thinking about, okay, how do we recreate this as a coach? One way is to get someone a Myzone. Another way is to actually help your client understand that their effort is being acknowledged, that it is helping them progress, helping them look at how that helps them improve over time. Maybe it’s physical markers, maybe it’s psychological markers, helping them cue back in to actually that feeling of progress. Because that feeling of progress, when that effort does feel truly rewarded, that is such a sticky factor. And it just keeps people coming back for more and more.

Dr. Sandi: So, this is for those of you listening who are not familiar with Myzone. So, it is right now…unless you have a Garmin and that’s in the future, you…what you need…it’s the watch. So, you purchase the watch. And then it’s connected to the…

Dr. Heather: Yeah, or a heart rate strap. Yeah.

Dr. Sandi: Or a heart rate strap.

Dr. Heather: Yeah. Exactly. And they’ve got an app as well, Myzone Go app as well that is integrated with it all as well. But some people love the analog nature. There’s no number, there’s nothing. And it’s interesting because other wearables are going that way as well. And it’s just when I…I wore mine this morning on a walk, then I went to the pool. I didn’t have to worry about taking it off in the pool. It’s there measuring away. I’m pregnant at the moment. So, I’m watching my heart rate. So, it was really reassuring for me to know, okay, I’m staying in this zone. Maybe I need to tone it back a little bit here or I need to push forward here. And yeah, it just can move with you throughout the day and just provide that reassurance and also the acknowledgement. And you feel like you’ve achieved something, which is a lovely feeling to feel at the end of the day.

Dr. Sandi: Yeah. Well, this is really exciting, the work you’re doing, looking at…as a behavior scientist. I was in this field for many years and looking at behavior change. So, we have come a long way in understanding behavior. And coaches are certainly so well-suited. They are the behavior change experts. And I love that you repeatedly talked about the role of coaches because that is their zone to help people change their behavior and look at ways that it’s gonna stick.

Dr. Heather: Absolutely. And I think, one thing we have to remember as coaches is that we are highly passionate and we’re highly driven in this area. And so, we need to take a step back sometimes and realize that our clients are dealing with other motives and other motivations. And so, our job is to elicit that out of them rather than telling them what to do. We’re creating, like you said, Sandi, the shoulds. It’s about actually coming back to helping clients turn good intentions and clinical recommendations into small personally meaningful actions that can survive your imperfect life.

Dr. Sandi: Absolutely. So well said. Heather, it has been a pleasure to get to know you. Where can people find you if they want to learn more?

Dr. Heather: Yeah. So, I’m on LinkedIn. Just Dr. Heather McKee. So, it’s M-C-K-E-E. I post the latest behavioral science insights there. If people want to learn more about how at Myzone we’re integrating the behavioral science into our work, we’ve got this free white paper. It’s really popular with operators, with coaches. If you just go to the Myzone website or if you just Google Myzone MoTech white paper, it will come up. And you’ll see how we’re integrating all of these principles into the work that we do.

Dr. Sandi: Fantastic. Well, check it out, everybody. Well, thank you so much for being with us today. I know it’s late where you are across the pond. So, it’s been a pleasure to talk with you.

Dr. Heather: Thank you, Sandi. Thanks so much for your time.